Landscapes of Injustice

Landscapes of Injustice

Wally Paulik, interviewed by Josh Labove, 04 May 2016

Wally Paulik, interviewed by Josh Labove, 04 May 2016

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Abstract

Wally begins the interview describing what it was like living in 

Steveston and working as a gillnetter there. He describes the sights, 

smells, and sounds that he remembers most about Steveston. Wally 

explains what Steveston was like before and after Pearl Harbor as 

well as the different shops that were around at that time. He tries 

to recall the Japanese Canadian coworkers and classmates that had 

been impacted by the outbreak of the war. Near the end of the interview

he tries to remember the various pieces of property such as homes and 

boats that Japanese Canadian families had lost.

00:00:00.000

Labove Joshua (LJ)

So, we're at the Golden Lodge Cannery (?), I'm here with Wally 

Paulik, and Wally, you were saying that you spent a lot of time in 

Steveston.

Wally Paulik (WP)

Yup, in the early '40s, I guess, I worked in the fish canneries and 

started gillnetting with my brother in 1940 and '42. I got my own 

boat in '46 but what I recall about Steveston most is, okay, I 

picked up one of your brochures here today as I was coming in and it 

said 'sight, sound, and smell.' That's what I remember most about 

Steveston. On the subject of sight, I recall Packers towing some of the

sailing vessels in from the lake to the canneries to roe salmon. On 

sound, the thing I recall the most is the sound of the gillnet boats 

that had the wet exhausts and the exhausts shot out under water and 

you'd get a hundred boats leaving, at the opening, leaving the fish 

canneries at the docks, going out, the steady sound of the gillnet 

boats with the wet exhausts. Later on that sound went away by the way 

side. It was a different sound because they put mufflers on and what 

they call a dry exhaust. That sound eventually vanished. On the subject

of smell, the fishermen in the Steveston residence called it the 

money smell. The reduction plants turned herring, pilchards, and salmon

into fish meal and oil and Steveston interurban cars also carried a 

cannery smell right to Davie Street and back. One of the things I 

remember most was in the early '30s, I think, because I was very 

young at that time, my dad took me to Garry Point and, at that time, 

the, uh, it was the home of the Atagi (?) boat works and not only did 

they build flying gillnetters but the yard embarked on building seiners

as well. The yard built the Maple Leaf Sea in 1929. Captain Mel 

Falfer and his crew from Alert Bay still holds the all-time record 

for 1450 tons of herring caught by the Maple Leaf Sea with a 275 fathom

with a depth of 36 fathoms. He made that catch in the Oakton Channel 

south of Prince Rupert. The fish was packed to BC Packers' plants at 

Namu, Alert Bay, and Steveston. The value of that set was reported to 

be about $35,000 at the time. After 1942 when the Japanese were moved 

to the interior Stults (?) Brothers operated the yard and built many 

gillnetters in order to further widen sterns built with yellow cedar 

saw and timbers. The other yard that was very busy at Garry Point was 

David Boat Works. It had contracts to supply tanker built lifeboats for

the 10,000 ton freighters being built at many BC shipyards during World

War Two. Not all Steveston gillnetters were built in shipyards. I 

recall one being built on Sixth Avenue in a back yard by the name of, 

if I still recall I think it was Olson's. He had help from a veteran 

Icelandic boat builder named Sigarson who lived up the street from him.

The vessel was launched and fished by the Fraser River and then was 

stolen from its mooring. In around 1951 I was crewman on the Great 

Northern Five fishing anchovies in Barkley Sound. This would have 

been in April or May and we went into Bamfield for fuel and supplies 

and amongst the fish boats tied to their moorings I spotted a boat 

named June Two with a telltale Icelandic hooked stern.

This must be Olson's boat, I wrote. I wrote a letter to Mr. Olson

and addressed it to Sixth Avenue at the Steveston post office and 

told him that 「I'm pretty sure that's your boat.」 The name, I 

forget the original name on his boat but the name has been changed. I 

advised him to go to Port Alberni, contact the RCMP, they've got a 

launch there and they'll take you to Bamfield. I found out later 

that he did follow my advice but not only did he go himself he also 

brought Mr. Sigarson along who helped him build the boat to identify 

the boat. Sure enough, it was their boat. Later on I heard that in 

the court case, I wasn't there, but in the court case the judge 

asked the fellow that took the vessel why he called it June Two. 「Is 

that your wife's name?」 He says 「No, actually, it's my birthday.」

 laughs.

So I'm wondering if you can tell me a little bit about what

Steveston was like, you know, before and after Pearl Harbor.

Yeah, Steveston, the earliest recollections I can recall were at the

very point when the Scottish Canadian Cannery operated. My dad took 

me there and I was just a kid at the time and I recall very high 

density housing there that the Japanese fishermen lived in. It's 

almost like some of the townhouse complexes we've got in Steveston 

today. There's no color to the houses. They were all weather faded, 

sunburnt wood. They all had, they were two story houses, all had a 

gillnet roller out of one of the upstairs windows because the 

fishermen's wives and the fishermen, in the winters, they made their 

own nets then they'd roll them out of the rollers and down to their 

boats or down to a net carton and took them to their boats. I also 

recall, well in the early '40s, uh, in Steveston, if you go to Number 

One Road here and you go south to the waterfront on the west side of 

the road the first shop was Mukai's Confectionary run by the Mukai 

family. Later on, uh, well, I can tell you a little story on the 

Mukais. My brother and I were hunting at Rock Creek and we went into 

Greenwood and I said to my brother 「Let's stop for a cup of coffee 

here. There must be a coffee shop in such a small town.」 We saw a 

coffee shop there, we stopped, and guess who served us coffee. Kenji 

and Hiroshi Mukai who we went to school with. They were a little 

older than I was but one of the Mukai boys was my brother's 

classmate and the other one was my older brother's classmate so it was

quite a reunion.

LJ

They ended up interned in Greenwood?

WP

Yeah, and if you went down the next shop was ... The Tufno brothers 

operated a sheet metal shop and the Tufno boys were Wally and Roy. They

built not only fuel tanks for the gillnetters. They built water tanks 

that you usually put on deck and they built pumps that are probably 

still in the museum here. They were made out of sheet metal and had a 

plunger on the bottom and you had a long rod that you pumped up and 

down to drain your bilges. Later on, when they got high speed 

engines, they started building smoke decks for the mufflers, also out 

of sheet metal. The next shop I recall would be the Eastok brothers who

built very fine gasoline engines for the gillnet boats. They started 

off with a five-seven horsepower called a one lunger. They made a ten-

fourteen which we called a two-lunger and they finally ended up with 

a twenty horsepower, three-cylinder engine which was a very fine 

engine.

00:10:07.000

WP

They all started building drum drives and the first drum drives were 

made out of car rear ends and their favorite rear end that they would 

buy or acquire and convert was a model T Ford rear end and I sold 

several of those to the Eastok brothers. I got a dollar and a quarter a

piece for those at the time. They also would buy a stick shift 

transmission for the boat's rear end so you could gear your drum drive

down or speed it up. Later on they built their own ... They got away 

from using car parts and built their own drum drive. The next shop down

that I recall was Steveston Machine Shop. It was operated by a fellow 

by the name of Ben Rose and Sid Watts and in the early '30s they 

actually built a marine gas engine, one-lunger engine, which they 

called the Ben-Sid named after the two partners. Later on, I think 

Mr. Rose went off on his own and Sid Watts and his son run the shop. 

Then there was another shop closer to the waterfront, it was our 

blacksmith shop run by Tom Howard. In between there there was a caf□ 

and there was a pool room, I think, run by a fellow by the name of 

Carl, I'm not sure of his last name. Something like Neiberheir or 

something like that. Also just about where the new barns are and 

where the park is there, Tom Leslie ran quite a good business there. He

had a gas station and a hardware store and a bit of a lumber yard. 

His son, Stan Leslie, later ran one of the gillnet collectors back 

for BC Packers and I delivered my gillnet fish to him. Going farther 

down Steveston, going down to Number Two Road, right from Number Two 

Road to Dwights and just about from Moncton to the waterfront was all 

Hongo's farm and Hongo operated a store in the dike. Those kids worked

in the summer holidays while we were going to school there, uh, picking

beans, peas, cucumbers, and they had celery. We worked by the bushel. 

We got paid by the bushel. We got paid coughs. Excuse me. Every 

Saturday was payday. We went to the company store and the bookkeeper 

would use his abacus to figure out our bushels and how much pay we 

got coming. One of the other things we had was credit at the store. 

We could get charged for pop or chocolate bars or butter. We could 

charge it and bring it home. If you were overdrawn at the store you had

job security. The foreman always said 「Come back Monday. You'll 

work next week, too.」 laughs. So we had job security if you were 

overdrawn. Always had a job but they were good people to work with, 

work for. I recall every day at ten o'clock and three o'clock the 

foreman would come around with a big, I guess, porcelain jug of tea and

we'd have tea, just green tea with the logs. I recall drinking the tea

and then you'd spit the logs out because the logs were always floating

in your cup but it was good tea, nevertheless. Another thing I recall 

in the early '40s, there was always a bounty on seals. I think you 

got five dollars a nose if you chopped a seal's off and brought it 

to the fishery officer. The native fishermen even from the, uh, I 

recall there were two brothers Isaac George and his brother Patty 

George.

00:15:01.000

WP

They lived over on Reid Island. It was close to, not Nanaimo, more 

closer to Ladysmith and they'd row through  and they always had 

their thirty-thirty in their canoe. When they spotted a seal they'd 

pop them off. I remember another story. One day I was fishing dogfish 

in the gulf in the fall and Patty George comes along side there, he'

s watching me, and comes along side this canoe, he's heading for 

Steveston. I was hauling my last string and it's almost getting dark I

said 「Patty, if you want to hang tight I'll tow you into Steveston 

because I'll be finished here in ten, fifteen minutes.」 He said, 「

No, thanks Wally.」 He said, 「Your engine's going to break down and 

I'll have to tow you in.」 laughs. I remember that story.

LJ

So, I have to ask, you must have lost a ton of coworkers though in 

1942?

WP

Yeah, there's a lot of fishing families in Steveston, big families. 

The Lewbinsky brothers come to mind. You know, they're three 

brothers that were involved with ABC Packing Company. There's a lot of

fishing families. They didn't all live in Steveston. A lot of them 

lived in different parts. Those few years your only employment 

chances really were, uh, well, forget the sawmills because the sawmills

... I remember you could go to any sawmill at seven o'clock in the 

morning and there would be 1500 people lined up looking for work and 

sometimes the foreman would come out and he'd ask the guy 「You got 

experience?」 The guys with experience he wouldn't hire but the guys 

with no experience he'd hire them and say 「Well, you come to work for

a week and then you'll get some experience.」 After the week they'd 

lay them off. So they had a week of free labor. I recall working in the

wheat mills, scooping wheat. We worked a ten hour day and we got nine 

cents an hour. It was hard work when you're out in the open field. 

So the canneries were a good source of income, you know, because even 

though it was seasonal you worked long hours. You could get overtime 

but you worked long hours. You could pretty well always find a job in 

Steveston in one form or another especially if you're a net-man or 

something like that. A lot of the earlier fishermen, they'd maybe come

to Vancouver and buy a boat but they knew nothing about nets but if you

were a net-man you'd always get a job hanging nets for private 

individuals, not just for the companies.

LJ

After internment though there must have been lots of boats.

WP

Oh, it was criminal what they did. You know, some of these Japanese 

fishermen had brand new boats built. Some of the other ... They towed 

them all up to Westminster and the government sold some of those at 

five dollars apiece. If they at least would have given five dollars 

to the Japanese but they got nothing. They took their ships, they 

took ... Their houses weren't really their houses because, well, 

they built them. Most of the Japanese houses in the early years were 

built outside of the dike. That reminds me of another story. I have a 

few notes on here that I can tell you but, uh, searching through notes,

I remember in around 1936, '37, my dad reading the Richmond Review 

at home and he said 「These are the most honorable people.」 I said, 「

Who?」 Then he told me the whole story. He said that most of the 

Japanese families in Steveston lived outside the dike and therefore 

their homes had no legal description and so the corporation of the 

township of Richmond could not send them a bill for property taxes. The

Japanese community, nevertheless, each fall, presumably after the 

fishermen received their fishing statement from the canners, they 

presented a check for several thousand dollars on behalf of the 

Japanese Canadian Association to console in lieu of taxes.

00:20:10.000

WP

I could be wrong on the exact name of the organization. Today, a lot of

us pay several thousand dollars in property taxes to the city each 

year. However, in the depression years I recall my dad's house on 

one acre was taxed in a thirty to forty dollar per year range. So the 

donation by the Japanese was indeed a sizable sum from a most honorable

community in the depression years. Not many people are aware of that 

today.

LJ

No, I haven't heard that before.

WP

The Japanese, they're a very proud people and while they probably 

remember it they don't brag about these things but I think, you 

know, they should be given the recognition that they deserve.

LJ

Did you lose, um, personally, friends during the uprooting? Are there 

coworkers?

WP

No, not really. In 1949, I guess, when the Japanese came back I 

actually sold a second gillnetter in Steveston that was sold to a 

Japanese person. I think most of the fishermen accepted the Japanese. 

They figured they had an inherent right to be here and I think it's 

a sad undertaking on the part of the government to relocate them. 

They used the argument that, well, the Japanese did know the coast very

well. I'll admit that but, you know, they talked about they could 

radio Tokyo and all this. They didn't have radios. We didn't even 

have a radio at home until after the war or during the war, you know?

LJ

A lot of fear?

WP

Yeah, so it was a case of, I don't know what you would call it, 

overkill on the part of the government.

LJ

People being very nervous, maybe?

WP

I don't know. I know the fishermen's union took a strong stand 

against it, that the Japanese should be ... Actually, when they came 

back they took a real good position that they should become part of the

organization and get back into the fisheries.

LJ

And many Japanese families returned to Steveston.

WP

Yeah, I don't know but there was a lot. You could walk along the 

boardwalk from Garry Point right to, in Steveston, Number Two Road. 

Most of the houses were all outside the dike because they built them .

.. They recovered logs and driftwood and most of them, you know, they 

sawed off some of the boats' wood and it was all from reclaimed 

lumber.

LJ

In some ways Steveston hasn't changed very much. I mean, just as we'

re sitting out here ...

WP

Well, one thing that's changed, sitting here we could usually spot 

about five fuel barges. Today, I don't know if there's even one. I 

think there's one on the dock here throughout all of Steveston but 

in those days fuel barges were, well, even Vancouver harbor I think 

there's probably one barge or now two and they had I think three, that

I recall.

LJ

So this is relatively quiet by comparison to where it was?

WP

Yeah. The other thing that changed a lot is the islands, Shady Island 

there. When they pumped the sand up there they brought it out here. 

Before you could cut across if you're going to Ladner or going to 

Surrey you could cut across Shady Island a lot but you can't today. 

You've got to go a lot farther. The other thing, river traffic, in 

those days, well, even in the '40s but the only thing a gillnetter 

gillnetting in the river here had to watch for was the Samson Five 

which was the government steam-wheeler that was retrieving sunken logs.

A lot of them had their roots on still and if you kept one of those 

in the gillnet your net spun so they were, the government had them 

bunked. The Samson came in the river and they were working steady up 

and down the river so you'd have to watch for the Samson and there was

also, in the '40s, the Lady Rose came into Steveston to the Number 

Two Road dock and took over Victoria. You'd maybe get one freighter 

a month go up to the rice mill, the Canada rice mill. By the way, yeah,

I'm going to New Westminster to load lumber. But today you can go 

here, you'll see Seaspan barges going through and you'll see 

Seaspan towing rail cars on barges to Vancouver Island. It's a lot 

of traffic.

LJ

Well, I want to thank you so much for chatting with me a little bit. 

I was hoping maybe we could just look at the map a little bit and see a

little bit and go back inside. It's getting a little warm out here 

already.

WP

No problem.

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Growing up on Lulu Island and farm stories 

about the Paulik family.

For presentation to the Richmond Garden 

Club's monthly meeting on June 22,2016

By: Wally Paulik

First of all, I'd like to thank you for inviting me 

to speak to your club this evening. I didn't intend

to do research on your group, but in perusing my 

archives I came across a 「Directory of Frequently 

Called Numbers」, and on the reverse page 

appeared an article by Bill Lewis on the 

「Richmond Garden Club」. No date appears but 

under municipal council 「Gill Blair」 is listed as 

mayor, so your club has been around for a while. 

My first club membership goes back to 1934 

or 35' when my older brothers' invited me to join 

them in the 「Junior Achievers Stamp Club」. We 

would meet every Saturday morning at Sonny 

Banner's Dad's chicken barn on Heather Str. And 

trade stamps, with the other club members. I still 

have that first album. 

As you can see there's no chicken poop on it, 

because we'd meet in the end of the barn where 

the feed was kept.